Interview with Eva Shaderowfsky, October 5, 1999

EvaS Our guest this evening is Susan Koppleman (aka Huddis). She's the editor of a wonderful collection called, "Women in the Trees: U. S. Women's Short Stories About Battering and Resistance, 1839-1994." Welcome, Huddis!:)

huddis Thanks.

EvaSHuddis, in the introduction, you say you thought you could keep yourself, your own experience with battering, out of the book. But you couldn't. Why is it that you wanted to keep yourself out of it? Why was it you found you couldn't?

huddis Good questions. I was being torn between two of my ethical principles. One is to respect the privacy of those in my family and protect them from being exposed in my work. The other is to always make certain that I am completely open in my work about how I relate to the subject. So, I didn't want to talk about my own experience in regards to battering because it would expose my family's person stories. And I was esp. concerned for my son and his fiancÈ and my new husband. I didn't know what impact my personal revelations might have on their lives, what consequences would accrue to them that they had not invited. At the same time, I believe that it is crucial for women who have suffered from this guerilla oppression to stand up and testify so that the evil is no longer protected by our shame at having been victimized. And also, so that the myths about which women are battered would not be perpetuated. I believed myself morally obligated to speak out. Does that answer the question?

EvaS Yes, it does. Thanks. :) Huddis, how long after you left your first husband did you get the idea for this marvelous collection? How did this come about?

huddis The two events had nothing to do with each other, really. Although I do want to add that I didn't leave him. I kicked him out. Big Difference. One night my DH, my son, and his fiancÈ were sitting around the tv late at night after a very busy day when none of us had had a chance to hear news. And we saw on every single channel replays of the famous white Bronco chase. All of the announcers were doing voice-overs and I kept talking back to them saying, "Oh, this reminds me of this story and that reminds me of that story." And finally my son said, "Mom, why don't you do that book RIGHT NOW!?" So, I went over to my computer and I started compiling a preliminary table of contents. I have been an historian of US women's short stories since 1972 and had already published eight other books. But we all had to talk about the privacy issue before I went much further.

EvaS It's a great story, Huddis!

huddis Thanks.

EvaS Do you think this book could be of help to a woman who's being or was abused? If so, please tell us how the book has been used to help women so far.

huddis Great question, Eva. There have been some wonderful stories coming back to me. Both about women who are being abused and those that have been abused. One story is this: a woman teaching literary classes at a shelter for homeless women and children began using my book as the text for the course and many things happened. One is that the women began learning to read faster than they had with other material because they wanted so much to know how the stories ended. And they also starting "coming out" in their group about having become homeless trying to escape a batterer. So, it led to discussions that created group solidarity and renewed self-esteem when each realized she was not a lone victim. Another story is from the director of a battered women's shelter on Long Island. She had several clients who had been coming in for shelter and then returning to their batterers off and on for many years. She gave each of them a copy of the book to read and within a very few months, each woman had made and executed the decision to leave.

EvaS Impressive, Huddis! I found the book fascinating. There are really good stories in it.

Dorothy Vivian I have personally given Susan's book to a woman who had been on the fence about leaving her violently abusive husband, about a year ago. Within two months, she had made solid plans to leave and now she is living safely and with great joy on her own.

EvaS Dorothy, now that's a great story to hear!

huddis Hurrah for that woman and for Dorothy!!!! And I do think of the book as an intervention and that's how Dorothy used it.

Dorothy Vivian She attributed her awakening to Susan's book!

EvaS Dorothy, that's wonderful.

huddis Good, thanks, Dorothy.

Dorothy Vivian I also use it for myself to continually remind myself so I don't return to denial!

EvaS Dorothy, excellent! Huddis, should men read this book, too?

huddis Why not? Of course they should.

EvaS Mine is reading it now. :)

huddis I'd love to know what your man thinks of it. Will you tell me or will he write me and tell me?

EvaS He loves some of the stories. Kate Chopin's story impressed him.

huddis The Chopin story is wonderful! Except it is the one that men tend to like the most because instead of the woman escaping on her own, she is saved by the intervention of two men.

EvaS What I was going to say before is that I found the book wonderful and I'm not an abused woman. But I think we've all been in some place where we're emotionally abused and there are those stories, too. Huddis, I've read so many profiles of the battered woman. Over time, they've changed quite a bit. Now I don't know if there even is a profile. Is there?

huddis No, Eva, there isn't really a profile of a battered woman that is authentic, anymore than there is a typical earthquake or tornado or airplane crash victim profile. To assume that there is a profile is to assume there is something about battered women that makes them predisposed to being battered. Not true. I feel very strongly about this issue of "profiling" victims of battering because as soon as a so-called profile is legitimized by "experts," those who don't fit it feel exempt, which no woman ever is. And women who haven't yet been battered somehow think they are different from, often superior to, women who have or are being battered. On one hand, it's divisive of women, on the other hand scientifically flawed, and on the third hand victim blaming. What do you think?

EvaS Sounds just right, Huddis, and fits what I've seen and read, too.

huddis Good.

Dorothy Vivian I am glad you brought up emotional abuse because virtually every woman who is abused physically has been emotionally abused earlier.

EvaS Dorothy, an interesting point.

Dorothy Vivian And if she doesn't recognize this abuse, it may well escalate!

huddis Oh, yes, you are so right, Dorothy Vivian. You are a wise woman. Thanks for reminding us of that.

EvaS I once knew a social worker in the public school system. She would talk about not having sympathy for the mothers who were battered. "Why don't they just leave??" she would say with great indignation. There are many people who don't and won't understand what this is about. Why is that? Do you think they're protecting themselves in some way?

huddis That's is such a painful question, Eva. Attitudes such as hers cause such suffering. They make women experience their imprisonment even more profoundly. And for a social worker to have this attitude is a manifestation of professional incompetence. It means, as far as I'm concerned, that she has no right to be in her job, anymore than a psychiatrist who has sex with patients. First, do no harm. But the larger point of your question, of course, is why do so many women have this attitude? I think it results from a complex of causes, including the one you mention, self-protection. And it also includes misinformation, arrogance, a complete misunderstanding of the dynamics of battering and other factors that I know Dorothy and others here can add to. The question should never be, "Why does she stay?" but should be, "What is preventing her from leaving?"

EvaS Thanks, Huddis, and I spent lots of time wondering about her. I even spent time trying to tell her that she was wrong. What you say is helpful.

huddis If she lives in a state where recertification is necessary for her professional licensure, she should be forced to take courses in domestic violence to continue with her professional career.

EvaS Yes, that would be good for her. Truly! Also helpful are the quotes you have before each story. The quotes you have elucidate, clarify what's coming in the story. I have one here...didn't remember to write down the author, however..."For battered women of color, seeking help for the abuse they are experiencing always requires a tenuous balance between care for and loyalty to themselves, their batterers. and their communities." There's been a lot written about split allegiances if you're a woman of color. Does this mean the abuse often goes unreported even more than in the white population?

huddis I think no one really knows the answer to that since there's no way to measure that which is not reported. And there are so many reasons why abuse is not reported. What is referred to as split allegiance is only one reason and that reason has a vital life in all marginalized communities, I am sure, not just communities of color. But it certainly does have life among women of color. Of course, the majority of abuse is unreported so, how can we really know? I think the question ought not include the word "more." That leads to "profiling" and profiling leads to victim blaming. I think we ought to ask what factors keep different populations of women from reporting and not compare one set of reasons with another. Does that make sense to you?

EvaS Yes, very good sense!

tzales Elaborate on "split allegiance," please.

huddis "Split allegiance" refers to the conflict a person experiences when they are torn between two or more identities. In this case, solidarity with people, men of color, and an understanding of the ways in which they are horribly oppressed, repressed, and victimized by the legal system so often, as in the case of Rodney King. And solidarity with women, even just herself and her desire for relief from the battering. It functions, this split allegiance, in lesbigay communities, Jewish communities, poor and working class communities, in any community where there is at least minimal solidarity and understanding that there is unequal treatment by law enforcement based on group membership that is in conflict with the desire for protection. Protection not only for oneself, but one's children, when there are children, and the desire to stop the violence. But if asking for the violence to be stopped means getting the man possibly killed, the woman thinks long and hard and often is paralyzed into inactivity, at least for a while, and that while can be deadly to her.

tzales Thank you, huddis, I understand!

huddis Am I being too long-winded?

tzales No.

EvaS Great explanation, Huddis, and no. The more the better. :)

jcmaher When I was working with teens on issues of violence in relationships, I found that African American girls sometimes held very different notions of what constituted battering and perhaps this accounts for some of the under reporting. Many of them told us that they fought back and had a certain pride in that. Whereas in some immigrant groups, the girls would tell us that they didn't say anything because they didn't feel that there was anything that could be done anyway. One girl wrote - regarding abuse by her father, not her boyfriend - that his position was that he gave life to her and he could take it away.

EvaS Excellent points, jc!!

huddis Those are two different reasons for under reporting and both good stories to hear. Thanks for telling us. Jc has not only done some important work with teens on this issue, but has written some wonderful material about it.

EvaS Is it online by any chance?

jcmaher No.

huddis I'm grateful she is joining us tonight.

EvaS jc, I'm glad you're here to tell us about this.

huddis And I'm grateful that Dorothy is here, because she has done some brilliant and insightful writing bout abuse. What a great group this is!

jcmaher Going back to what you said earlier, Susan, about the attitudes of some women who profess not to understand why a woman would stay with a batterer, I would have to count myself as once having been among those numbers, I think because of two of your categories...i.e., arrogance and - I don't remember what you called it, but shorthand for it would be Pure Ignorance. I remember having that question about women: "Why not just leave? Certainly I would leave if someone ever did that to me." Except that by the time someone was doing that to me, I found it was not such an easy matter to leave.

huddis And it is for those who don't know that this book is presented as an antidote. Oh, JC, I am so sorry you had the experience of being abused.

jcmaher So, it's been part of my response since, when I hear people say that, I'm able to say - "Yeah, that's how I felt once, too, but......."

huddis Great response, JC. It is such a good strategy for penetrating their walls. You are a nice person to be able to educate them without getting outraged. These days I am sort of -- I think it's called taking care of myself -- so when I am faced with that level of denial/ignorance/arrogance, I am just as likely to say something like, "I'm sorry your imagination is so limited. Perhaps you should seek therapy."

Dorothy Vivian LOL!

huddis Or, "Is your imagination impaired or is it an intellectual problem? Are you stupid?" Or I'll say, "How unpleasant for you. Don't worry, I won't tell anyone."

huddis I am, as they say, "learning to feel my anger."

EvaS Huddis, I'm sure your responses go far with these people. ;>

huddis I've noticed that when women say it, they never seem to be embarrassed by their inadequacy, but instead to be proud of it. Why? Well, they may or may not go far, but they sure let them know what I think and it saves me time and energy because I don't try to "help" them overcome their ineptitudes.

jcmaher I'll try to answer that, if I can remember accurately that far back. <g> I think I was indeed proud, in a way. I'd been raised as a feminist, more than most. Was independent, held up as a model to other women, as such, and thought I had my shit together. I truly had no experience from which to imagine that I could ever be in a relationship in which I would not be in control at a fundamental level of at least myself (if not both of us!). So, I was truly coming from a place of ignorance. And I think part of my getting into the relationship that I did was almost a kind of research, if you will, except no one told me about lab explosions! But my ignorance wasn't malicious, certainly wasn't meant to be. It was just profound ignorance. And then I was disabused of my ignorance.

EvaS jc, we can call it the PI factor...for Profound Ignorance.

huddis Beautifully written, JC. Great stuff.

lynners Another way to diffuse denial is to get them to volunteer at a shelter.

huddis Lynners, you're perfectly right. There are lots and lots of good strategies for diffusing denial, as you put it so well.

EvaS A good idea, Lynn, except they refuse to see what's happening. Those people are victims and they themselves are not, in their minds.

huddis I personally think one of the best is to read, "WOMEN IN THE TREES." I know it's being used in classes of different kinds all over the country for just that purpose, from women's studies to law enforcement to history. I suppose that before I spent two years touring with the book, well, even through the whole two years, I wasn't impatient with people, but now I'm very tired of dealing with that attitude. One of the great things about being part of a revolutionary community like the women's liberation movement is that when one of us gets burned out on something, like I am burned out not on the subject of domestic violence, but on dealing with the attitude we have been discussing, there is always someone brilliant, unique, politically wise, and patient to take our place. So, I'm delighted to know you are doing that and talking about it. Thanks.

Dorothy Vivian From my experience as a rehabilitation counselor working primarily with women, I think the denial of violence against women also has to do with deep unconscious terror.

huddis You mean terror of having it happen to you? Please explain more.

EvaS Dorothy, yes, do tell us more. Go ahead, please. :)

Dorothy Vivian Yes, the intimidation of women goes on constantly and has for centuries. We all know it exists and women have simply grown inured.

huddis Dorothy, that's what Eva and I mean when we talked about women doing it for self-protection. I'm glad you are expanding on that topic and I think you are absolutely correct.

Dorothy Vivian We need information like Susan's books to keep this reality in front of us because so much is always hidden.

jcmaher I was just smiling thinking of how it might have/might not have changed my course if Susan had confronted me with her challenge to my intelligence back when I was young and P.I.

huddis JC, when we were both that young, I would probably have been one of the ignorant, too.

lynners Dorothy, the same kind of terror that blames the victim in rape cases, its what she wore, where she was, etc. If I don't wear that or go there I can't be raped.

EvaS Lynn, a good point.

huddis Absolutely right, Lynners! It's the same thing and I was very careful, in choosing the stories, to include stories about as wide a range of women as possible to help dispel the myth that there's some kind of woman who is invulnerable to abuse, who will know how to handle it the minute it starts, who is in no danger and can take care of herself. You know, all the myths. I tried to include stories that left no woman mystified. Stories that would let ALL women know IT CAN HAPPEN TO YOU! It's not about any particular type or age or appearance or ethnicity or educational level woman. It's not about YOU. It's about the fact that you are a woman living in the patriarchy and that's one of the ways women are kept oppressed. It's the random guerilla action of an army. No woman deserves it, so no woman can either expect it or protect herself from at least the first episode.

lynners Not only that it can happen to all women, but all women need to know what her options and resources are if it happens.

EvaS Huddis, you wrote in your book that movies often have an avenging father or brother who goes after a man who's hurt their daughter or sister. Where are those avengers in women's short stories? You ask this question and I ask you the same. Where is the necessary intervention? Why don't more people come to the aid of an abused woman?

huddis Mostly, Eva, I think that intervention is a myth. That it is one more of the ropes binding women to their abusers. If people know it's happening, and don't intervene, often a woman feels even more abandoned and isolated than if no one knows.

Dorothy Vivian Often women hope to find someone who will rescue them, a "good man" who will rescue them from the abusive relationship. They rescue them and they turn to someone who proves to be another abuser. I think DV (domestic violence) has to be addressed at all levels and all women need to realize they are at risk!

huddis Oh, yes, Dorothy. So right. And when I said I was burned out, I only mean burned out in the one area of dealing with women who "don't get it." But I work with DV issues every day.

San Antonio I think my mind is set on the idea that the definition of abuse includes "long-term." If a woman is physically attacked, is this assault? Not defined as abuse? I'm confused.

huddis San, terrific question. I would call "assault" a subset or category of abuse. If she is physically assaulted once and manages to extricate herself immediately because she's read, "WOMEN IN THE TREES," and understands the meaning of that first assault, then she has escaped long term physical abuse. But has not very likely escaped emotional, verbal, spiritual, economic abuse before the first physical assault.

San Antonio I'm going to read the book!!!

huddis Let me know what you think when you do, San.

San Antonio Will do, huddis!!

lynners......Social Services here try to keep the perpetrator in the home to keep the family unit intact. They say abused children feel guilty when perp has to leave and it makes matters worse. Whadda ya think?

huddis Where's here, Lynn? Afghanistan?

EvaS:)

huddis Bad joke. Sorry.

lynners Milwaukee, WI

huddis What I think is that abusers should be removed from their homes, from the place they are perpetrating their crimes, and the children should get counseling. Counselors who explain in ways appropriate to the age of the children that no one has the right to abuse the people they live with. No one deserves to be abused. And when people break those rules, they have to, depending on the kids' ages, be forced to take a "time out."

lynners Me, too, but try and fight the system.

Dorothy Vivian I just want to say to Susan, I know you are bone-tired, as I am.

EvaS Huddis, we've run out of time.

MirandaOOO Great to hear that you want to hear what we think about your book! Perhaps your book will remain a classroom staple and you will develop updates based on feedback! Sounds great! I can't wait to buy it for my daughter and my niece. :)

EvaS Miranda, it's wonderful!!

huddis Oh, wonderful, Miranda. Let me know what each of you thinks.

Cybersiren Thank you so much for speaking to us!

MirandaOOO Yes, thanks!!

EvaS Huddis, thanks so very much for being our guest this evening!!

tzales Way to go, huddis, you've got all of us salivating to read your book!

EvaS We have to have you back again and again, you know.

huddis You are all welcome. I think of it as speaking together.

EvaS We only went through half the questions I had for you. :)

San Antonio Thanks so much!!

Dorothy Vivian Goodnight! Love you, all!

huddis Well, there is another book I did, "THE OTHER WOMAN: STORIES ABOUT TWO WOMEN AND A MAN." It is an early companion volume.

San Antonio That sounds good, too!

EvaS And thanks, everyone, for being here and making some great comments! Excellent discussion.

San Antonio See you next week!

huddis Thank you, all. This was lovely.

tzales Night, huddis. Thanks for coming!

EvaS We'll be back, same time, same place, next week, everyone! Hope to see you then! Night! ::poof::